CAMRA and JDW
It seems that people think that I have joined CAMRA to cause trouble. I assure you that this is not the case. Have a quick look through the contents of this blog. Over 80% of the posts I make are about Ale. I like Ale and I appreciate the effort CAMRA have done in the past so I can enjoy it today. As I have commented previously there are some aspects of the Campaign that I disagree with and I plan to address these during the week and state why I disagree. As for slinging shit on the real ale stereotype, I think I will continue to do so. It's funny and my posts always get a lot more hits when I have a crack at a bearded freak, but I will address the issue of the stereotype and how it relates to CAMRA in a more serious nature later in the week. For now, I want to discuss the nature of the relationship with CAMRA and Tim Martin's pubco J.D. Wetherspoons. The picture to the left is a discount coupon which I received in my membership pack. It entitles me to 50p off the price of a pint of real ale in a JDW drinking barn.I don't want to reinvent the wheel about why I don't drink in 'spoons (Jeff has a good post here) but I will summarise briefly. I dislike;
- The drinking barn/warehouse like atmosphere
- The fact the toilets smell better than the pub interior
- The impersonal nature of the venues
- The business model which relies on low cost/high turnover of sales
- Hypocrisy in promoting responsible drinking, but selling cheap booze in high qualities (see above)
- Antisocial behaviour of some customers
- Low quality food
- Freezing temperature of cask ales (some venues)
- Being alcoholic friendly (well they are in London anyway)
CAMRA also supports breweries which produce 'real' ale, but JDW pubs use their massive buying power to negotiate sales prices which result in very little margin for the brewery. Of course the brewery has the right to sell his beer to other pubs at a higher rate, but the tied pub structure that exists in the UK (which CAMRA also happens to support) severely restricts the number of outlets a brewery can sell to. Overall the result is that these small breweries are really squeezed to the point of not being viable as a results of JDW's buying policies.
I also believe that when these coupons (pictured above) are used, then the sale of that pint is below cost. Selling alcohol below cost or even cheaply will result in people drinking higher quantities which is hardly promoting the responsible service of alcohol. I could continue, but the relationship between CAMRA and JDW serves only to advertise JDW which I feel will lead to more pub closures, and the closure or downscaling of smaller independent breweries. Surely this goes against the core values of the campaign and is highly hypocritical.
If you feel the same way as I do about this issue, then drop CAMRA's Senior Marketing Manager, Tony Jerome and email (tony.jerome@camra.org.uk). He is soliciting feedback both positive and negative on this issue.
Labels: CAMRA, Weatherspoons
posted by Tim at
Wednesday, April 01, 2009
29 Comments:
My question is what has CAMRA really done? Do people really think that if they didn't exist real ale would be a fond memory?
I have serious doubts this would be the case. Why, because lager was the drink of Britain for many years. Perhaps it still is. All the big macro lager brands hit England and became enormous. There will always be a market for real ale, small or large, with or without CAMRA.
Sausage, I will cover that issue in another post. This one is just about CAMRA's relationship with JDW.
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CG, Lloyds bars in airports often have a token ale on.
But on a whole I am not too sure as I don't frequent them.
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I'd be interested to know what makes you believe other than rumour, that JDW screw small brewers on price. I asked one of mine about this (Phoenix)and was told emphatically they do not. They have a maximum price over which they don't normally pay, but it is well within what most micros charge and they settle up on time. Of course they'll screw discount for large volumes, usually from the likes of GK, but they pass that on to the customer.
Following on from that JDW with their huge buying power, don't have the buying power of Punch or Enterprise. The difference there is that for reasons unconnected with selling beer, they choose not to pass it on, but they do demand discounts and given their relative buying power, probably demand more.
Finally, I'd agree there are some dreadful JDWs. But the list you mention isn't a conclusive proof of anything. Certainly not enough for CAMRA to rethink. In many towns, JDW provide choice and value. In London the difference in price may be a lot more stark, but out in the real world, the difference isn't so great as make much difference in most cases. Pub closures are a much wider issue than JDW.
And I have to say, while not a big fan, of the many I've been in in London, not one smelled bad and I have not seen any anti social behaviour. The rest of your list has may well be correct in some instances though.
And what have you got against alcoholics? They tend to be better behaved than most, getting on with the main business of getting pissed..
Tandleman the CAMRA forums are a pretty good starting point for these 'rumours'. One particular thread here outlines the practice of margin squeezing just nicely.
True as a pubco JDW is still in the small time compared to Punch and Enterprise, but I was singling out JDW in this case.
I guess I draw my experiences from London where depressing JDW houses literally are the pits. I can't comment on many regional JDW houses except Whitehaven, but that was not really very nice either and was quite rough.
While CAMRA may not rethink their arrangement with JDW, the invitation was there to send feedback in regards to the relationship.
JDW outlets do serve a purpose.
You heard it here first.
They keep a certain type of person out of other far better pubs so you can enjoy your pint of well kept real ale without the threat of drunks, violence, smells, and the general knobheads who hang out in those godforsaken shitholes. I never minded having one relatively close (but not too close) to my pubs.
Such witless generalisations are just plain silly.
The 4 Wetherspoons that have been the nearest to me in the last 5 years, in North London, Hereford, Ross-on-Wye & Street, Somerset all fall into this 'witless generalisation'... funny that.
Talismann is a CAMRA official, he has their back. You didn't expect him to agree with you? Anyway, we need to even the playing field by instituting a rival gang. APRK, or The Army for Proper Real Keg is unleashed. Just think of The Good Keg Guide, National Keg Ale Weekend, The GBKF. I think we should instill a commando type uniform, with keg badge and name on the front. Together, we can leave the prehistoric past.
Talismann is his own person. Nowt to do with CAMRA.
“JDW and its low cost business model is responsible for a significant number of pub closures across the UK”
Many of these closures will be pubs owned by Punch or Enterprise, who are much bigger than JDW! It’s Punch and Enterprise who are responsible for closing these pubs not JDW.
“when these coupons (pictured above) are used, then the sale of that pint is below cost. Selling alcohol below cost or even cheaply will result in people drinking higher quantities which is hardly promoting the responsible service of alcohol”
“higher quantities”?
Surely the number of vouchers limits the quantity sold at a lower price.
Tim you are talking rubbish.
If you say so Ian, but I have 10 vouchers which are dated for the next three months which I can use to buy 10 pints of beer at a JDW pub tonight for £1.29 per pint.
Exactly, once you’ve redeemed your 10 vouchers you’re back to paying the full price.
What the hell is so hard to understand? The point the Doctor is making is that those 10 pints could be purchased elsewhere. What are you, some kind of socialist?
Ian full price is £1.79 per pint. At these prices (and with their 99p GK IPA special) they are either losing money or selling with little margin. It's the Tesco argument of getting people through the door so they can spend their money on other value added products with a higher margin.
The prices are making it harder for other pubs to remain competitive which does result in some pubs going out of business.
Lets just end it with they are to the pub trade what a Korean chef is to pet care!
I was going to comment at length. but you know, I really can't be bothered. What you hope to achieve with all of this I really don't know. If you think this will bring about some sea change in CAMRA policy you are very deluded (albeit not as much as sausage who seems to be totally barking).
You do seem to have a bee in your bonnet about this but, hey, CAMRA has more than its fair share of obsessives in its ranks and one more won't make much difference I guess. Welcome aboard.
Wurst if you rearrange the letters for your keg campaign it would be KRAP.Says it all really.
I am deeply saddened, and offended by your rearrangement of my campaign. You seemed to miss the very obvious arrangement of A-Prick!
7200 hits, with entertainment value to boot! More than I can say about the majority of the stupid dross that litters beer blogs. Go back in your cave with your vinegar based cask ale and Wetherspoon's coupons.
Attaboy, sausage. Up and at 'em! Woof, woof!
@John Clarke said;
"If you think this will bring about some sea change in CAMRA policy you are very deluded"
Maybe or maybe not, but now I am a member my opinion is just as valid as yours or Tandleman's. I have a right to have my opinion and if I can validate my opinion with common sense and constructive argument, then just maybe I can convince a few people to see things the way I do.
Well you are right about one thing - you are entitled to your opinion and I said as much on Tyson's Beer Blog when others wanted to ban you.
You'll get nowhere in getting many people to see things your way, but I at least will defend your right to try. No need to thank me.
“The prices are making it harder for other pubs to remain competitive which does result in some pubs going out of business.”
Punch or Enterprise will own many of these pubs going out of business. As I said before, It’s Punch and Enterprise who are responsible for closing these pubs not JDW.
"my opinion is just as valid as yours or Tandleman's" This from the guy who's been in Camra for five minutes I'm not sure Camra is big enough for your ego!
You're a joker and a hypocrite.
@camragirl
I am a member and have paid my fees. Length of service has nothing to do with validity of opinion.
It's like your saying that a new british citizen has less right to vote than one who was born here.
Clarke, you got a track coming. A well deserved ballad. Take some blessed, you'll need it.
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