Beer Savers
These simple items (pictured left) are designed to stop cask beer spoiling, going off and turning to vinegar. For performing such a task they should be hailed as heros, but instead CAMRA have branded them as effectively "evil" as they were not used in the middle ages (where I presume all beer tasted like shit). CAMRA enforce their medieval beliefs on landlords by omitting them from their pub guide (confusingly called "The Good Beer Guide" which is edited by aging bolshevik Roger Protz) if they use them. For the publican in a remote area where trade is passing, or via advertising provided by this publication, not being listed is committing business suicide. These devices have unlimited potential, and their acceptance and use could see drinkers being offered the choice of many different ales available rather than the usual one or two bland choices which one normally comes across. The device on the left is a check valve and is sanctioned. It is used when an electric pump or gas is used top push the beer to the hand pump. It acts by stopping the beer being pushed any further, so the beer has to be pulled out of the hand pump - this stops the hand pump from leaking. The device on the right is a cask aspirator which allows a blanket of gas to enter the cask, but not under any pressure. It also contains a release valve which stops pressure building up with the cask - overall a nice bit of kit. The blanket of gas replaces air (air is roughly 78% Nitrogen, 21% oxygen and 1% of other gases) with an inert gas to eliminate oxygen. Oxygen is bad for beer and makes it go stale, although CAMRA would like you to believe otherwise.From a technical point of view they can be used and still meet CAMRA's definition of real ale;
"Beer brewed from traditional ingredients, matured by secondary fermentation in the container from which it us dispensed and served without the use of extraneous carbon dioxide"
So basically if you use a cask aspirator with nitrogen as a blanketing gas, you can still call your beer 'real ale' as only carbon dioxide is a no-no. So why do pubs not use them? Well they have a stigma in the industry and its not worth the trouble of being delisted from CAMRA publications. Also pubs renown for their real ale have the turnover and rarely see a cask go bad. But if other pubs which only have a marginal ale turnover used these devices we could realize the utopian world where every pub had 10 casks of well kept ale on. We the consumer are being denied this by the backward mentality of the self appointed guardian of beer - CAMRA. As a member of this organization I feel embarressed about such backward policies.
I sourced these from Barley Bottom Home Brewing Products after having a spot of trouble with another vendor. Much better service from these guys and I was happy to do business with them, they were also significantly cheaper as well!
What is everyone else's opinions on these devices? I certainly see no harm and I am all for seeing beer served in good condition everywhere.
Labels: aspirators, CAMRA, cask breathers, check valves
posted by Tim at
Tuesday, June 23, 2009
23 Comments:
Big fan of them: without breathers, the number of permanently-available cask ales in Dublin would be one less than the current total of one.
I suspect there are more cask breathers out there than you think. A friend in the trade told me that Fullers actively promote them.
anything that helps keep Beer in fresh cond. longer is the bee's knee's...
@Ed - I don't doubt that cask breathers are widely used, but no one openly admits to it.
I think they are genius. I have two breathers and two flow valves. What I use them for will be covered in more detail in coming months.
Good post. If you are planning on leaving back to Oz, I think a video is do of you either pissing or pooping on your CAMRA membership. Maybe just stick in a can of Stella and blow the can up!
In the probably vain hope that you are writing seriously about this subject, I'd like to chip in a few points. No doubt I'll be met with abuse, but as it is a very worthwhile topic, here goes anyway.
Your basic principle here is right, but you fall into the trap of thinking this a utopian device - it isn't. To work properly it has to be applied to already conditioned beer - cask conditioned - remember that? That means the beer is already at risk from oxygen and all the breather will do is slow the process by between two and three times depending on how well it was looked after in the first place and the turnover. If you just stick it straight on, you'll get green beer.
For some marginal pubs it is a good device for slow turnover beers, provided all other aspects of dispense have been looked at(size of casks, number of beers, when you vent, how you condition, how clean your cellar is, length of pull, when you have enough trade, etc. etc. and importantly, why you are selling cask in the first place if you haven't the turnover for it. In the circumstances where you still feel you have a case for cask then it becomes a commercial decision. Not being in the GBG isn't business suicide - plenty of successful ones aren't, but of course it can help if you are. I doubt if you are going to forsake the only pub in the middle of nowhere, just because it aint in the GBG. CAMRA doesn't check cellars and while not encouraging landlords to lie, it is purely up to them what they do and if I was them, I'd certainly consider your alternative of pure nitrogen in a breather if everything else failed. You could certainly argue as you point out, that you are not contravening any CAMRA policy.
Your assertion that "we could realize the utopian world where every pub had 10 casks of well kept ale on" is regrettably, wishful thinking. The beer will still spoil if it doesn't turn over and there is the question of overheads and more. More cask breathers is unlikely to increase ranges or affect the choice of which beer is sold. These choices are made on entirely different criteria.
Lastly, CAMRA's concern, as I understand it, is one of thin end of the wedge, where inappropriate use (sticking it on for the second half of the cask for example, or on beer that hasn't been conditioned) could bring us to the point that proper cask conditioned beer more or less ceases to exist. It isn't a very sophisticated argument. Many in the campaign, me included think there is a place for breather devices provided they are used correctly and don't affect the cask conditioning process, the taste and don't compromise the overall principle of cask conditioning, because yes, there is a principle we believe in.
What is needed to take this further with CAMRA is a decently worded motion to the AGM to examine the issue again, so that concerns can be allayed and the device can be used properly. It won't be easy to word and it won't be easy to convince, but as a CAMRA member you can put such a motion forward.
Of course the other argument is just to sell keg beer when you have this problem. It's great stuff after all." Isn't it?
PS. There is far more beer spoiled by crap cellar practice than could ever be saved by cask breathers.
I think you have a bit of a circular argument going there, T-man:
"why you are selling cask in the first place if you haven't the turnover for it"
A breather -- correct me if I'm wrong -- reduces the amount of turnover required for a pub sell properly-conditioned cask beer by making the beer in the cask last longer.
You seem to be saying if you don't sell enough without a breather, you shouldn't be trying to use one at all: that's circular.
I don't think anyone is making the argument that breathers will somehow make publicans think they can stock cask beer without practising all other aspects of proper cellarmanship: the second pint of vinegar will show them and their customers that this isn't true.
You says that "More cask breathers is unlikely to increase ranges or affect the choice of which beer is sold", and I can tell you objectively, factually, that this isn't true. As I said in a previous comment, I would not be able to go out for a pint of cask beer today if it wasn't for breathers. And thanks to breathers my choice of cask beers is scheduled soon to go up from one to two.
CAMRA tolerates an awful lot of thin wedge-ends: happily promoting breweries that make unreal ales as long as some proportion of it appears on cask; concentrating on the dispense-end of gas, when just about every brewery pumps their system full of CO2 to shift the beer from one vessel to the next; seeding beer with yeast of a completely different strain to the one it was fermented with.
The problem within CAMRA seems to be more one that members can't actually tell if beer has been breathered or not, and are horrified at the thought that they might unknowingly drink and enjoy beer that has had CO2 pumped into the cask. *Gasp*
And, for the record, keg beer is brilliant stuff: it's just that English brewers have a long history of being shit at making it.
Without reinventing the wheel for arguments sake, I never stated that breathers are a substitute for good cellaring practices. I have seen the state of many cellars and would rather have CO2 'pumped' into my beer than cellar air.
Also a breather can be attached while a cask is conditioning. The breather will regulate the pressure and allow the beer to condition without exposure to air. Air is not a vital part of conditioning and surely exposing your beer to air at any stage is poor cellarmanship anywhere but the UK.
When breathers are used correctly you can get as long a sale life out of a cask as you can get out of a keg. I think drinkers should be given the choice of being able to drink either.
Well of course you and I are approaching this from a lot of different places. In Ireland there can be no argument that breathered cask ale is the only way to go, at least to get an "in". I'm glad that there is one handpump in Ireland, but one in a country is hardly a convincing case for a cask breather.The argument hardly applies in England.
The other difference I suppose is that I don't see the cask breather as a first choice and you possibly do. If you have all your other ducks in a row, you don't need a breather. Is your argument that all cask beer should have a breather?
Nor do I say that you shouldn't use a breather at all if you have poor turnover of cask. On the contrary I say that it's up to the landlord, but he ought to consider other things first.
Your third last paragraphs is no problem to me. I agree with it. Most arguments around the use of CO2 are emotional rather than factual but CAMRA membership is for most an emotional thing. There is however a big difference in taste in beer that has been force carbonated and that taste won't suit most real ale drinkers.
You also say "The problem within CAMRA seems to be more one that members can't actually tell if beer has been breathered or not, and are horrified at the thought that they might unknowingly drink and enjoy beer that has had CO2 pumped into the cask" No it isn't. It's as I stated above that it would be the thin end of the wedge and an erosion of cask conditioning.
And of course keg beer can be brilliant. I have had a huge number of brilliant pints of it, but very few in either the UK or Ireland and that's the problem. It would doubless end in dumbing down.
Finally if the cask breather became OK with CAMRA and everyone else do you think that would encourage the brewers to make better beer, or would they just cut out the additional breather step and return to the 60's and 70's with a mass of easy to keep keg?
This isn't a straightforward argument as you and Tim contend. The law of unintended consequences is likely to be triggered.
Hess, again your brainwashed, monkey arse for a brain continues to baffle. How's that for an opening statement??
Co2 is Co2, regardless if it's part of a secondary fermentation or not. Did it ever occur to you that you can condition a beer to 1-1.5 volumes of co2 with what's commonly referred to as a co2 tank? Your comments clearly indicate you know nothing about brewing. You basically recite the same old, tired CAMRA dogma, over and over again.
Please explain the following, Hess: "To work properly it has to be applied to already conditioned beer - cask conditioned - remember that? That means the beer is already at risk from oxygen and all the breather will do is slow the process by between two and three times depending on how well it was looked after in the first place and the turnover. If you just stick it straight on, you'll get green beer."
Where in the fucking hell do you come up with cask conditioned beer is "already at risk from oxygen?" The oxygen doesn't get introduced until the beer is pulled. While the beer is going through a secondary fermentation, the naturally produced co2 puts a blanket over the beer, because it's heavier than air, protecting it. The idea behind a cask breather is to NOT let air in. It allows one to pull a pint and instead of pulling in air, the vacuum pulls in very small amounts of co2.
On another note, green beer is not a result of sticking it on "straight away." You have no idea what you're talking about. You can't back up any of your retarded statements with actual science. If you can, I would love to hear them.
Come on Sausage and T-man, play nicely. The Beer Diary does not discriminate based upon race, religion, gender of german political allegiances. The Beer Diary doesn't tolerate fools though......
I don't see the cask breather as a first choice and you possibly do
No, I don't think anyone's saying that pubs which don't need breathers should use them. A pub which does not sell cask at all, however, will need to build market, or at least determine whether the market exists. Breathers give them the opportunity to start small and try to build to the point where the breather can come off. No sensible publican is going to keep paying for unnecessary gas refills.
I agree that the landlord has many other things to consider, but the only one relevant to the breather is "Do I need a breather or not?" If the beer is rotting in the casks with everything else being done properly, then the answer is surely "yes". And if the landlord suspects that it'll take a while to get this delicate new product moving, then surely a breather is an obvious starting point.
I still don't get why this thin wedge-end is a problem but others aren't. As you imply, it's irrational: but surely that's something to be complained about; it's not an excuse.
I think the leap backwards from breathered cask to keg is a massive one: as you said yourself, drinkers can tell the difference between keg and cask, but not between breathered and non-breathered cask. That's the fundamental reason why the unintended consequence you speak of will not happen. A breather is up there with a metal cask: no, it's not traditional, but it doesn't make a significant difference to beer quality. Not enough to warrant not using it.
Rebuttal - yes it is too much to ask given your behaviour, but OK.
Anyway. What YOU, the unhinged troll describes seems to be essentially brewery conditioned beer. You say "Co2 is Co2, regardless if it's part of a secondary fermentation or not. Did it ever occur to you that you can condition a beer to 1-1.5 volumes of co2 with what's commonly referred to as a co2 tank?"
Sausage - Of course it did. You actually prove my concern that all we'd get with extensive breather use is unpasteurised brewery conditioned beer which isn't matured in the cask. I doubt if you are agreeing with me intentionally, but there we have it. As for staling through oxygen read up a little on carbonyls and linoleic acid. Charles Bamforth (look him up) is pretty good on it. Then again he isn't a home brewer, so what the fuck does he know? But I forgot. You have no reading comprehension skills. Good or shite? A running joke on rfdb. Lew (an old mate of mine - ask him) was being ironic.
None of this is to say you can't use cask breathers to prolong "cask" beer, but it isn't the whole story. That's the point I was making. If you are half the brewer you say you are and not just a troll, you'll agree with that. There are many different nuances of use of the breather in dispensing beer and in the use of CO2 in the brewery to "condition" beer, which is my main point. The kind of beer it gets to protect is another. Go too far down the track the wrong way and you don't have cask conditioned beer - with all its faults.
If you (Sausage) had those missing comprehension skills rather than just being an internet trouble maker and troll, you'd see on beer and CAMRA I actually agree with you (and Timbo) quite a lot. But as I've said before that's not what (either of) you are about. So there's a chance for you to stop your pointless attacks on people you've never met and start using your brewing knowledge to add to actual debate, but I doubt if you'll take it. Not that I care either way. People see you clearly for what you are. That's why I never bother (until this one off) to answer. You do my work for me. Condemned out of your own mouth.
Well, that's it, unless a miracle happens, it's back to ignoring you like (almost) everyone else does.
"I think the leap backwards from breathered cask to keg is a massive one" It isn't Beer Nut - I know you are one of the good guys but simply, you massively miss the point.
The people know exactly who I am, and exactly who you are. I actually brew beer. You just drink it and represent an archaic, organization that is CAMRA.
You actually left out something from your rebuttal. That's science. What is the difference between beer that's been aged in the cask and beer that hasn't been, but that's unpasteurized, not filtered, aged, yet LIGHTLY carbonated by extraneous co2 and served in a cask via a beer engine?? Some brewers don't even prime their casks, because the beer has a residual amount of co2 left over after fermentation. There is no science behind beer being better because it's been aged in a cask. There's science behind stripping it(filtering it) and Pasteurization(killing it). This removes flavor compounds. The biggest flavor contribution you get with cask comes from the initial stages of oxidation, not that it's been aged in a cask. This is also its downfall, as vinegar lurks around the corner. Your brewery conditioned beer has been filtered, pasteurized and fizzed up, that's why it has no
flavor. Also, the lack of hops plays a significant role.
As far as your slanderous comments regarding my person, and the personal attacks I'm associated with, the people know you're the only one on my radar, and for good reason. You're a humorless, man child.
Oh well Peter, still up late at your mums house I see. Yes, my punctuation is shit, but I'm typing with one hand. I am not a troll. I'm a beer journalist and beer satirist.
As for me being normal, that's an easy one. Just by a hunch, I'd say you're probably not terribly normal either.
I have, as ever. come rather late to this. Two points:
1. Tandleman - Sausage is clearly whay Ron Pattinson refers to as one of the "home brew twats". You really couldn;t put it better, could you.
2. Beer Nut - "when just about every brewery pumps their system full of CO2 to shift the beer from one vessel to the next" - well, I don't know how many UK breweries you have been to but I've visited a fair few and have to say this is a right load of old bolleaux. Most breweries use either mechanical pumps or gravity to shift the beer around. Where do you get this stuff from?
It isn't Beer Nut .. you massively miss the point.
Well, can you explain it for me?
My contention is that it's a small leap from non-breathered to breathered beer. And we've agreed, I think, that the objection to the latter is not on grounds of any difference to the beer itself. I also contend that a further leap to force-carbonated beer would make a noticeable difference to the character of the beer and, as a result, the drinkers will object when presented with a pint of it.
It's this difference between a non-discernible change and a discernible one that suggests to me that breathers won't lead to more kegging.
How do you see the worst-case path from widespread breathers to kegging going? Why do you think the drinkers will stand for it?
Where do you get this stuff from?
Bloke down the pub, obviously. Thanks for the correction.
BN - I don't want to give that lunatic another chance to jump in, so we'll discuss it over a pint sometime.
Geez, you head off for a few days of Sunshine in the med and come back to a world where Michael Jackson is dead, Sausage and T-man are arguing and cask breathers are interesting?
haha
Rudy and his gob shite lover, John Clarke tried to rattle my cage. I wouldn't piss on either one of these fools if they were on fire!
Funny, the clown still never answered any of the questions I posed. Instead he ridiculed my punctuation, called me Kevin, said I can't handle normal, called me a troll. Can't argue science now, can you Rudy?
Lovelely arguement chaps - between the drinker and the brewer. Let's look at it from a new perspective - that of the landlord (that's me!).
I currently run a rural pub, and i am delighted to say we are fairly successful and featured in the GBG. We currently have 4 handpulls serving cask ale, and one for traditional cider. During the summer the throughput on the beer is significantly higher, but during the winter we struggle to keep two of our beers in tip top condition, selling between 1-1 1/2 firkins a week. depending on when a barrel comes on, this can sometimes leave a barrel on sale for 6 days if it comes on sat night say. our most popular ale sell 4 kilderkins a week even in winter so if i listened to CAMRA i would reduce my offering from 4 beers to 2 for the winter to avoid downgrading quality and ultimately wastage.
However this year after some consultation i am installing cask breathers on the three slowest moving ales to see if the system will improve the quality and life of these products. otherwise it's a vicious circle - customers try the 'guest' ale but as the quality drops off won't stick with it and go back to the super popular ale, and the guest gets worst.
i would rather risk the wrath of CAMRA (as a licensee for 10 years i have never been a member, despite getting 2 pubs into the GBG), and experiment with cask breathers in an attempt to keep my range, than cave in and halve the choice.
if my reputation for great beer increases, then hopefully the turnover of the guest beers will too and the breathers will become unnecessary again - so what is the problem?
i know of 2 other good examples of breather use - one is a competitor pub which has little trade but the beer is surprisingly good - that pub has been using breathers for 15 years!
the other is a friend who opened a pub and introduced cask ale. he started off gradually with small containers and cask breathers and slowly developed a reputation for great beer. the pub now has 4 handpulls and is still in the GBG many years later, and he has gone on the run 2 more specialised real ale pubs, including a branch pub of the year!
basically from our side of the bar what CAMRA doesn't know won't hurt them and cask breather technology if used correctly can only increase the availability and choice or cask ale in our nations pubs, and you would think CAMRA would applaud them.
magicbarninja
Post a Comment
Comments welcome, however if you are a ticker, weird beard or anonymous spammer expect to have your comments edited or removed.
Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]
<< Home